Hi, welcome, back to Phantom X2 and Friends. I'm Caroline Mutoko and I get to introduce you to the friends of the Phantom X2 have, you got yours yet? Now, the friend today is a Kawira Mirero. Your smile, what chick? But let's get down to it.

“Ati” Fashion. Hmm, tell me so what what did “mathe” say? You see l have gone straight there. No let’s go.

I’ll starve, you will starve, she said you will starve but I'm sure the road to here wasn't a straight one, every time I talk to somebody who's found a sort of pleasure in what they do, like you when I say, okay, tell me how the journey got you to here. Was it straight? Did you literally go study design and then you cut your first patterns, your sketch them and voila. “Mapambo” was born, no,no,no tell me MP as a lot of my clients, call it. Oh really? They find Mambo Pambo a mouthful, I love it . So it's been baptized MP, MP,

It took away it took a while.

Where do we start? Let's start from. Where did you going to high school. I went to Alliance… you’re those people. I'm surprised you didn't bring your own mug hashtag, l went to Alliance. “Halafu” I grew up in Mombasa. The one thing I can say about Africa, having lived across Africa, pretty much across Kenya even as much as we're the same will also very different. Oh, yes, we are. The flavors, the sense, the sounds, the noises, what makes us tick Mombasa has a very strong seamstress tailoring culture so the ladies design their own clothes.

You go to Kibokoni, you buy fabric. So l would take my mother to Kibokoni to buy fabric and we'd go to her tailor make clothes, a lot of them would be disappointing, come home, look at it decide, maybe we remove the sleeves and stitch them back and so growing up we did that. But then I went to Alliance and you go to Alliance to become a doctor or a lawyer or at worst a teacher a professional career. That's what you are told. Yes. But I always wanted to do design art and design, I've painted, drawn all my life but then I guess you know growing up. It's understandable though. As a parent you want your child to be to do well to be comfortable. You're making all these sacrifices for them to be comfortable and unconventional careers were not known. No, no no. And then I the networks also, we take it for granted. Now that we have the networks, you can take your child to Milan to Paris to to learn these things. Where was my mother going to take me to learn fashion, you know? Yes. And then her experience is that “fundi” in Mombasa who tailor us things for 500 Shillings and then do a great job. No. Because again that's the other thing I tell my clients is a difference between a designer and a “Fundi”, a lot of “fundi’s” and tailors suffer burnout because he's the accountant, he's going to do shopping, he is coming to the client service and he still has to find time to put together a dress. And then when you're not doing ready to wear every dress is a pattern, it is yes. So you have to draft it and work on it a fresh.

What time does that tailor have the time to think about clients? And that's why they get into all these problems. So you see it's a designer and are tailored two different things and so as I said, it's understandable that they almost “juakali” the “juakali” industry is not we haven't reached the level where it is something you want to your child to get into. You would rather she just got employed or became a doctor. Because works at the hospital, you have a salary, you of pension, but you seem to be the sort of person, who is a true honor, thy father, and mother, and they were concerned that you will starve. So I want to know when you finish college, “ulienda wapi”. So, I studied design still, I think I went ahead and study design, but I majored in graphic design and then because I knew people who studied graphic design and while working at Nation Media Group, so I wanted a corporate job, so you end up with Nation. Yes. Nice, corporate career. Yes, yes. And I had a first class degree in design. Okay, yes, top of my class. Okay. Number two, where three well done. Thank you. How long did you stay at the nation? I worked at the nation for two a little over two years. As I studied, for my MBA, in the evenings, it was convenient because from Nation Media Group Nations Center. Yes. Okay. Yes. And then now I moved into marketing Communications as we would call it then and then a lot of the jobs I got had a design components so I would still do the graphics as I did the other bit of marketing, so your life was still…..yes yes have always had creative aspects to every job I've had.

Is it true you paint? Yes.

Yes. I guess that's even what got me this far because I went to high school and opted to do art and design. And then I discovered art and design is not just painting, you can design, you can do graphics there is packaging. There is, yes as a lot, product design how it feels on the hand. Economics. How the chair you sit on its design, somebody sat and put through. Yes. And how high? Yes color palettes, balance. So design is in every aspect of our life. So at what point do you say? Okay, honestly, I've done the, what is it called the proper career. I've done the Nation. I think you mentioned to me, worked at Strathmore. I worked at Strathmore then I worked at Davis and Shirtliff. Davis and Shirtliff was my last formal employment in Kenya. I met my husband and we got married. Uh-huh. And when I moved to West Africa, I quit my job, then we moved to West Africa. West Africa is a region. Where? We went to Accra. We lived in Accra for four years, Accra Ghana and then we moved to Abuja in Nigeria for another two years. Now, I understand, because West African women let's start with Nigerian women, they happen. Do they have to wake up and get dressed. No, it was a revelation. Let me share a short funny story up to now l think back and l laugh. So, one day, I went to drop my little girl to the kindergarten and I was in jeans and a t-shirt this lady stopped me.

Are you unwell? I was taken a back. Why are you dressed like this? You are only so well dressed we don't leave the house. Like yes. So West Africans. Put a lot of thought. Yes. In their fashion choices. If you go to the supermarket you need to look a certain way. If you have a birthday party coming, you you produce a print, and give all your friends and they must get as creative as possible and create the every event is a chance to step out and look good. If you're going to the club, I mean it's an industry and the weddings are a whole lot of yes. Yes with a series of outfits and headgear and jewelry and bags and shoes. It's fantastic spoken like a fashion designer. It is wonderful. Where we used to work we would say it starts on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Monday your recovering. Then you work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

So, I spent a lot of time at the market with the Tailors and seamstresses, stylist, and by the time l was coming back. Also, while I was there, a lot of friends would ask and family, bring me this, bring me that. Yes, I would actually design outfits, get them made, come back with them and sell here any time we are here on holidays l would come with, clothes shoes, and just sell “Kawira anakuja” so are you bringing me these, are you bringing me these allah? Yes, So, even as so while you're at it, also, I've come I came to realize African women have, were more curvy than your……. oh darling. So there are some tweaks, there's some structural adjustments and that's why I design comes in handy. There's some structural adjustments you need to make your dressing an African woman tweak here, tweak there and so with practice, of course you get better at it and that is when I reach the point where somebody wear something and then like, Wow, I love it. It fits.Yes. I love it.

I have clients who don't shop? Just say l am coming. I have gone to your Instagram I've seen this, this this this you have my measurements. I am coming. I'm like, come, you will tell me how you got into it, but you said something, you've got clients who say, so when you see someone in your outfits, how does how does that feel? It's validating, it's really validating, it's confidence-building. Okay, it really, you feel good? I feel good. Not just for me but also my team because we're a team. Yes. By the time l have visualized sketched sometimes a tailor say “eeh hiyo haiwezekani sasa itakalia aje”. I say give me the fabric, we cut it, we cut it, we fix it, I put it on. I'm like,” itakalia hivyo”. They are like ohh hmm okay sawa or back then, when I first started we had a design waterfalls waterfalls are right now I think going out of fashion, but we did waterfalls. And the first waterfalls, I'm pretty sure I was one of the first people to do waterfalls here. A client wore and she asked me, what am I going to do with all this fabric? Oh yes. Its too much What if I mean, if you look like like like royalty, so umm they do, even sometimes it takes time for them to buy into a design, waterfalls were no-brainer for me.

In fact, you did them, vivo did them. Yes. And I remember when she stops doing, you know, the copious amounts of fabric l was like am not buying it because I want to step out and it flows behind me. So that was back I think in 2016. Yes, we added a little trim and the first clients I could use my as the focus group. So sometimes they take time and when people finally embraced them, yes, we couldn't make them fast enough. We couldn't. So, so you are not starving. I'm going back to Mom. No, no, no, am not starve. We're not starving. Our starving days are behind us. Great. How old is the business? 8 years almost a decade soon. How many tailors? We are at 7 tailors and you are the designer. I'm the designer. So it's very important to create that because “fundi” is not the designer he puts together what you design. Yes. Yes.

But I try I tried doesn't always work, but I try. There are certain members of the team who also have a design eye and so it's a collaboration. So sometimes it's happening. Yes. Yes. How about? And so sometimes I'm open to that and then they are times I'm like, no, no, don't take liberties with my design, leave it as it was. And so we, you are that one. No, no. Sometimes you have to be like, no, no, no, it's just that we in the creatives space we're very much like that. So here's the thing, I need to know and I'm so going to come back to how I'm holding on to it.

So you finally start taking pictures for your Instagram. Where did that happen? And and did you have your own photographer? Before, so we started after Covid before Covid I was very camera shy. I would not, so you have to hire model, you have to hire makeup artist, you have to have stylists, you have photographer and then the fashion business is cash intensive. So by the time you've paid for a shoot and done that whole. Once you do the mathematics, you're not going to break even quickly because remember, this is a small business. And so, so I did it in 20 our the collection before Covid was 2019, and I remember working with Lucy Robi, and Lucy Robi, asked me why don’t you model? Model your own clothes? Who me? Never! “Siwezi!” There needs to be some separation, Covid hit, and Covid hit when we were just about to I was I just opened another smaller shop for ready to wear no clients l had stock like this….“Hakuna mahali tunaenda”, we were living in t-shirts and head scarfs.

I had stock like this so for a month I wallowed. Then I was like this wallowing is not going to take me anywhere, really? And then I had another phone back then so I told my kids, this, what you're going to do, we are going to take pictures. Mom is going to put on the clothes and you are going to take pictures. Yes. So we started we started slowly, so l would wake up in the morning, they'd ask me in fact up to now my kids ask how many looks like we're photographing today? Every look is 300 bob, it's not free. So they want to know first how many looks and a video is 500Ksh so they quickly, they quickly do their own math. Yes. And then they say and if this post has more than 30 likes, there has to be a bonus. Now, the bonus, usually we negotiate or they forget about it and so that's how we started. So, I would do, I just go into my closet, we have this design, it has not been seen anywhere with not more than modeled it to anyone. Because again, as a small business, we have a lot of designs. You come, you want a jacket that looks like this like this. So I design it, it ends up being a one piece, you know? So during that time, I had to keep my tailors busy also because I didn't want to lose them. So we reduce our hours when you train and a tailor opts decides to stay with you you want to keep that tailor because you don't do that again.

So we had to keep the team busy umm cloth masks how much are they going for? Starvation all over again. So now we started, now I started visiting every design. Seeing how can we tweak it? How can we adjust it? And then it's so the pictures that I see on your IG page, where your the model? Yes. And I'm looking at pictures of 2020. Yes, that was used as a model. Yes. And your children behind a cell phone. Yes. And that is how powerful cell phone cameras are actually, you know, I've been thinking I won't take it from you. What did you think the first time you touched the Phantom X2?

It’s a work of art. Oh God, the designers gonna speak. All right, I love clean lines. See how clean those lines are okay. And then he sits on the hand. Very nice that I agree. I remember the first time it was handed to me. I said, thank you. Yeah. Uh-huh. And then the camera. Huh. Yes, and it's just, it's a camera on a phone. Not how do l put it? Its not a phone It's yeah, it's actually a camera, but sometimes you can call with it. Yes. Yes. Then the picture clarity. It’s it’s thought through it has been thought through, thoroughly. Oh, gosh, a game changer for you. So, let me ask you something else.

You know, there's a lot of people who are like I want to be a fashion designer. I want, I mean, it's amazing what people want to do with their creativity. Let's assume the person watching this interview is maybe 23, 22, they've been sketching, you know, they've gone, they buy sketchpad and they're like I'll never bring these to life. What do have to say to that person? Because clearly, I'm going to tell them you'll starve. No, no, no, no. What I have this conversation a lot better with young designer, huh.

I usually started this way. Who are you going to design for? Whoa, that's brilliant. Who are you going to design for? Because clients my clients are typically 28 to be 65. They have the purchasing power. Alright. So my mom was not wrong. Hey, okay. So as a 23 year old who are you designing for? But the time you're finished because the market is quite production is expensive. Who are you going to sell to an outfit for 20,000 thousand ? True “nani huyo?”. Yes, yes. So perhaps hang on to that dream, but think of other ways to make that dream come true, it might not come true immediately not in this market because we're also not reach the self-actualization stage. Majority of Kenyans will not buy a dress before they buy food, buy a plot, build true true. Technically true true. So hung on to the dream but find a way to get to it maybe not immediately a dream deferred is not dream forgotten, it isn't. Yes. And sometimes when a dream is paused, dream another dream. Yes, you will be there. I love the way you think, that's refreshing. You have to be practical.

Okay, so I want to take you back to Abuja. Yes. You're on your way home? Yes. Because eventually you came back. We came back. Yes. But at what point did you do that thing of, you know, what I gotta do this, I got to do this fashion design thing. So, for the longest, there is book I can't remember off the top of my head, but it says our mums tell us speed up, one leg is on there on the brakes, yes, yes, go go, don't go so that’s how l have lived life. You know, I want to go, no, wait, I want to go, wait, so, and that's why I think I love about men. Men generally, if they want to do something, there is do it they call it “roho juu” so, my husband said, if you go back to Kenya, yes, you've got a corporate job. You shake up one of your Alliance people “lakini utakua unatusumbua hapa” Yes. And if you don't start this now you will regret it because it takes time to grow, build, get experience. It takes time. Okay? You don't want to start the struggle at 45, no, and we should start it at. This is also true.

So he said, we'll struggle for a while will make sacrifices but just go do it. And so, that's what I did. We came back as very fortunate I called one designer who gave me the lowdown and up to now because I'm so grateful to that lady. Anybody wants that a fashion business, call me, I'll tell you where the fabric is bought, I'll tell you where to get tailors, oh well done, l’ll tell you all the challenges because there are many challenges. So you're mentally prepared and then what you do with that knowledge, really is up to you because a lot of people take the knowledge and, you see why we call this the Phantom X2 and friends. Because literally she's saying, I'm not going to withhold information. No, no anybody who knows me will tell you if you call me it, as long as if I'm not able to l will tell you let's talk at this point. I will tell you everything and anything you need to know about the fashion business, still 40 million people. I can't even dress 40,000 yet. So yeah, actually what’s the problem. There is no problem.

This is something that has been at the back of my mind with every person I'm speaking to you on Phantom X2 and Friends. What, when was the first time you saw a TECNO phone? And what did you think? I remember it for me, it was all the young people in my in my department there was a time everybody had one I used to feel a bit like what don't I know I used to think what I know and then I was told the screen is amazing, It's affordable, It's this it's that it's the only way to go and I was like and then they showed me the X, the Phantom and I'm like, I'm ready. Well, what's the first time you saw a TECNO? Were there a Phablets a few years back? TECNO Phablets?. I think so. Were they TECNO Phablets? Yes, I think they were. I had one, l was obnoxious. Oh really? My kids were like mommy, that thing is so huge. Why are you walking around with that huge thing and then l am taking a call and its here like. Okay. I had one for the longest.

Then it fell and the screen broke then my kids were like hallelujah. Really? Enough of that thing. I used to feel that I had been left out and I felt because I wasn't young, I didn't get it. So, and here I am today, I get it. That was me, for me I think the advantage I have is that my husband is in Tech. So a lot of these new gadgets whenever they're around, he, he knows about them before, we all do. So, like not be, I've been asking l need a better camera, yes l need a better camera yes l need a better camera just wait they all coming, they're coming, they're coming and sure enough and he was right. I like that; he was right, in fact he is the one who unboxed it he told me, l told you. There is your camera, that’s a camera on a phone, your problems are sorted.

This conversation is over please follow Kawira on IG and remember, she's a fashion designer. So also she will want to take measurements, you know, who's going to ask you to dress me for this interview, and it's like, Caroline, don’t be that chick. The chick who doesn't give her a chance to do a good job. I've dressed you before though Brian Babu got a kimono from me, yes, the one that has the big leaves and it has big prints rules. Yes.

It was only one. I love kimonos. I didn't get that one, but you got it.

Thank you. Everything in its own time, everything in its own time. And I hope you'll be joining us for another series, another series, another episode of Phantom X2 and friends. This is a friend.